The Natural Dressage Forum

The key is the basic triangle that PK uses. A lot of us have seen it, but for those who haven't it's a balance between Relaxation (created/maintained by the hand), Balance (created and maintained with the seat), and Impulsion (created/maintained by the leg). They are taught to the horse in that order.

If you don't have one of these basics the other two will be affected, and each cornerstone is needed to help the others. For instance, a horse that is 'lazy' off the leg and/or refuses to give the mouth often has issues with balance, and once you fix the balance using reinback and transitions the other two will fix themselves.

The way I have been taught with Mark R and the way I have read in other books is to get the release in the TMJ. You can lift but an easier way is to push one ring back and bring one ring forward. If the horse still does not understand, you can actually put your finger in the corner of the mouth to get the horse to release the TMJ.
Then in hand you want to get the poll to release, with a slight give to side. You can get up close and personal using hands on face/jaw to encourage horse to soften. This is still hard for me feel/ and or get to the extent that Mark does.
You can also ask the horse to release down and in to release the back and/or connect to outside rein and follow rein down.
We then normally go to in hand lateral work of some sort. If the horse is remedial or young/stiff, using just inside rein and asking for movement away crossing inside hind over and under. Not worrying about outside rein, but giving the horse a start of an understanding how to use their body.
Then go to actual work in hand with SI esp, to HI, HP, renver and even going to trot in hand. Look for activating of inside hind with more advanced horses and can play with the length of frame. Always being soft on inside rein so do not block inside hind.

What KHall describes sounds similar to what I have always done. I like riding balance before movement as that is how I always tended to ride. It is the mobility of the jaw and raising the head in hand that doesn't quick click for me. I wish PK had tons of video of him doing the first four in hand sesions with ten different horses.

I ride two horses with obvious mouth issues- Red who is the teeth grinder, and Rave has always been a mouth gaper- it isn't near like it used to be but still some gaping remains. I would love to have better feel for this for these two horses, but one sucks his mouth shut the second he can and one never shuts his mouth. A constant licking chewing and playing with the bit seems like a lot to ask either of them

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bNpT5wajps&feature=related

Racinet riding a horse who is obviously continuously moving his mouth.

I saw video of nuno and PK and there horses are obviously moving their mouths but not quite as much so.

I add...
http://horsesforlife.com/PhilippeKarlAllAlone
article with PK. He mentions NOT wanting to lift the head of a horse with an upside down neck and long back.
And..
http://www.philippe-karl.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=5&location_id=354&topicid=3
PK giving Michel Henriquet the whats for. If you are not a math student just lok at the pics :-)

Gala used to never move her mouth at all with the bit in. She just didn't know she could! Allowing her to eat with the bit in, made a huge difference - she figured out she can actually move her mouth/lick/chew with the bit in there. Then I tried the PK in-hand work - it took a while for her to get it, but the key was keeping the pressure on evenly (and not increasing too much, too quickly) and ensure it was into the corners of the mouth. The best way I found was to stand on one side and hold the rein near the cheek on that side, while holding the opposite rein over the poll and slowly bringing your hands together.

Under saddle, the biggest thing I have noticed is that the more difficult the balance is for her, the higher my hand needs to go to get the reaction/shift. So, right canter is our weakest gait and I really have to exaggerate the lifting to get the balance to shift. In the other direction, I don't have to go nearly so high to get the shift because the shift is easier for her. Any downward or backward pressure only induces bracing, not re-balancing.

She definitely doesn't move her mouth constantly as shown in the Racinet video, and I don't think it is supposed to (better than no movement at all, but a bit too far the other way possibly caused by not enough relaxation?). When she was softly chewing correctly during my lessons with Carol, it was fairly subtle and not really constant - just a soft chewing every few strides. Unless you looked closely, I am not sure a casual observer would have noticed. She did a bit more when she was "concentrating" more or we were working on something more difficult, and that seems to be continuing in our current work. It also seems to be the case with PK's horses in his DVDs.

I don't like that much fussing with the bit. Surely it shows nervousness?? Worry? Would you say the horse in that video was accepting the bit the way you want?

No, I agree Racinet's horse's mouth is moving too much. I am pretty sure the horse has some anxiety/nervousness/tension going on during this ride. That said, I would rather have too much mouth movement than too little.

I tried wrapping Red's bit with fruit by the foot today- no difference. Darn. I really thought that would do it!!! He knows he can move his mouth but maybe I'll let him eat with his bit in anyway. This teeth grinding is not only incorrect and showing tension but it is so darn annoying!!!

I can get him to lick and chew bit in hand and at halt but not when we start trotting and doing laterals and what not.

Danee, try sweet feed. The trainer I worked with for years rode a FEI horse that was a confirmed teeth grinder. She used sweet feed throughout her rides and he pretty much quit.

The Racinet vid is one I've seen before. There are things about Racinet that I love, and there are things I've heard him say that just don't compute. The overall picture of that ride wasn't fantastic, but who knows what that horses background is and what he was trying to do? Possibly it was by nature a nervous animal.

Youtube Philippe Karl and you get a quite a few hits of people doing the mouth work, and what it should look like. One of my personal favs is this lady: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFo92-yYpa4

I think her horse is giving his mouth the appropriate amount. He doesn't look tense to me!

"The horse should be licking and swallowing. Not chewing! Swallowing and giving his mouth." ~PK

Thank you all for the links. Very interesting!

So that chewing: do you actually want it all the time? During your entire ride? Also, because I've schooled for one-rein-stop, there's going to be a little confusion when I ask my horse to keep chewing. I usually give the rein when she comes around. Anu suggestions?

I don't think there's any sense of 'asking the horse to keep chewing'. I think what is being discussed is what happens as a BYPRODUCT of the softness and releaxation that the rest of the training should produce.