The Natural Dressage Forum

Feel ( the last word in title of book......
Hoping there are some folks out there who have read this book and can discuss the presentation /" defense"/ scientific explanation for riding deep and round- it was published in 2006 in Holland= the 2008 date is English version- so before all the major hoopla and condemnation of Rollkur but this was first time I saw it last weekend - and pictures in book and their explanation are not horse with chin to chest and completely closed throatlatch / they make a big point of partnership/ lightness etc- and some closing remarks from 2000-2005 from various int'l trainers from symposia held at their academy...
In addition:
Andrew Mclean is a resource for them in discussing learning behavior and a Dutch guy with NH groundwork / horsemanship thoughts and Richard Weiss= an Australian with ALexander technique for rider position/ removing body blockages... and work with ANky and her husband..Pat Parelli is referenced for at least one sentence in there.

I will elaborate if anyone is interested.

Elaborate Kathi, I'm hear to listen!

I'm really into this feel deal. I think I have got a whole lot closer this year on it, and it didn't come from Parelli.

In a nutshell= they emphasized not trying to chase the horse from behind into the hands but to encourage the horse to naturally find the long and low position and then ride that contact and over time be able to positon the neck/ head where ever you want but that the deep / round position means that horse is #1 relaxed #2 able to physically bring their back up and use hind end under themselves.. and that the goal is VEry light horse- they say ANky'shorses are light and entirely adjustable.. and again= this was written way before this past year's explosion/ exposure of Rollkur furor ( one of the speakers at their symposium was Gerhard Heuschman sp? )

Tineke Bartels ( the mom) acknowledged her traditional German training and having to learn to rethink what she accepted as gospel and apply it to new training model..

Thanks, the chasing part, ya, I'm with you on that. I'm not so sold on the long and low. That is actually the way I learned it many years ago. And the relaxation, everything should be based on that, that sure is the key. I try to teach the horse to flex (even ears) then come up from the very beginning. That works for me. Of course in my younger years on hot blooded horses that head was WAY up there to begin with. So maybe it worked b/c of getting it down on a hot blood was the only way to get them relaxed. With my QH are bred to have a low headset, and are more downhill. If I can just get that break in the poll right and up so the shoulder comes up, I can get them rocked back for some collection and a soft feel. You can actually feel the shoulder open up, get higher and wider when you get it right. To me, in the end, it is far less about the contact then everything else going on, it just is contact then, a holding hands feel. But, heck, maybe I'm in my own world on this, but it works for me.

yep - you are in your own world... Laughing

but we all are!!!!
so I think that all that you are writing makes complete sense- and one of the points from the seminar was Steffen/ SHannon= not wanting to make it seem like there is ONE set of aids to use to do any of the movements OR to use with ALL horses - so it comes back to feel... and in the Bartels book the oft repeated comment of "you gotta ride a horse to learn how to ride a horse- " ( well not exactly that statement translated from Dutch!) and that fitness is important but riding is what develops riders.
I think that BREED and Temperament are big factors in training- as they relate to conformation, innate talent, attitude, and then whatever baggage they have when you get them ( or taught them in their upbringing or early breaking in period)
So with horse with laid back attitude and low head set - it makes sense that that gets taught less as it is innate and you work forward from there- for me it has been a long time coming in really feeling the hind end doing the work and letting it flow into the contact. rather than any backwards pulling - and some of this is really tough to develop feel for with decades of not riding with it ( knew it intellectually but doing it was another story and I guess it "looked good enough:" because I was told I had "good hands" yeesh-)
so a light contact leaves a lot to "opinion" on throughness = and that is what I think is subjective and I am skeptical on who to believe??_ I have watched a lot of instruction over the years and very few have the horse really "on the bit" ( none???) to the degree that I see when I go to these very upper level courses- so does that mean ALL these folks are deluding themselves??? ( and their horses?)
Are reining horses at the highest level= on the bit and through? gaited horses? endurance horses? can a horse be on the bit and through and ridden with contact with a loop in the reins?

oh yes, a "looped" rein. There is a excellent article in the Eclectic Horseman Magazine of Dr Deb's "Magic Of Draping rein. It her #5 Installment on How Horses Work in the EH. I like DD because she is not all western or English. You can order the magazine and even start with the back issues if you please. There is even a electronic version that is like $10 or $12 (full paper subscription is $28ish I think) And if you think you have already read something along the same lines from DD and don;t need to get it again, she has added even more in the EH articles. Here is a rundown of her chapters on the Draping reins, The rein comes alive, What Is Contact? What Is Collection? Death To The Frame! "Ring Of Muscles,-Figure Captions

There is also a excellent article on Changing Eye Using A Fence. a Article by Tom Moates on Harry Whitney's insights, Another Piece of the puzzle.

I went to 4 Clinics this year, and they just set up a whole new light to me. They were not dressage, but good horsemanship is good horsemanship and they all understood the horse, and moves to get anything done. I started with Brent Gaef, then Deb Bennett, then Buck Brannamn (who actually had a amazing way to show what I learned from Dr Deb, even though it was his own), then Martin Black (who was Ray Hunt's son in law, but a accomplished horseman himself) Oddly enough, there were Parelli people at everyone of those clinics, even a few "higher" Level students. In fact Parelli Pros have been in Buck's clinic's all summer. They don;t say they are there in their blogs, but they are there. I wonder if they are looking for the advancement they are not getting from Parelli, or carrying back advancement for Linda and Pat to sell as their own? Like Linda is WAZ's?

Anyhow, yes, it can be done. Refinement comes from the horse understanding it can be in a state of relaxation with the rider, a consistent pattern (but not droning a pattern into them) A place they know feels good to them, the poll, what some think is a headset, must be just hanging loose (that is that twirling DD talks about) not forced into it. If it is forced, then there is a brace, and a brace follows through in other places of the body (humans too!) So, getting all the body, all the quarters loosened up (what Ray Hunt calls "turning loose") getting all the braces out, getting to the feet, meaning knowing where the feet are, when to place the aids (which is a concept all good horseman have, like Karl Mikola's stepping stirrups) Everyone of those clinician's knew it and expanded on it. Not just knew it but started with it and ended with it.

A horse can be rode and shown in braces, many brilliant movers in modern dressage are. Certain exceptional horseman can control that anxious flow, at least for the time of the test or show (like run away Dressage horses after the test) That is where I think we get confused. Just like a Baseball player in a game is all fired up, gets the blood to boil, or a saddlebred gaited class, it can be thrilling. But it can't be sustained without damage. How well we know that after the game when everything hurts!

First of all I have not read the book, don't really have a desire to. Saw way too much of how the Dutch ride at WEG to want to read about it as well. Yes, the upper echelon very much so are deluding themselves. Apparently you can win gold in Olympics and WEG etc and not be correct, have for quite a few years now.
While I like SP and admire him, I did not like how Ravel looked at WEG, much prefered him in 08 Olympics. Saw way too many horses in pieces at WEG, not put together at all. Liked the Spanish horse Fuego the best, saw lots of forward with the hand with him, liked KB's daughter though horse is hot hot.
I do agree about not chasing a horse to the bit, but do not think that is correct anyway. It should be about the horse's balance first and foremost, don't take them out of balance and curling the neck up is not about balance it is about control. Curling does not engage the back correctly, does not loosen them. It breaks the neck, overflexes them and is so against correct biomechanics it is not even funny. Have you ever looked at Sustainable Dressage website? Really good info on why RK/HF is not good for the horse.

Yep I can say that hyperflexion makes no sense- but in the book and in what I have seen/ ridden with deep and round - it does make me feel the back coming up and horse more relaxed with that position

were there any rides ( did you see anything other than dressage?) that you admired at WEG?- from the tv broadcast-I thought a couple of the x country rides were beautifully ridden..( i think the brit that won and maybe the 2nd place guy?)

We saw the GPS, GPF, reining finals, reining freestlye demo with Anky (still can't get out of her horses face!) and x-country.
The course was unrelenting, it was actually hard to watch b/c it was such a difficult course and horses were having trouble with it. I hate to watch it when the horses are trying so hard and ending up banged up/hurt! There were a few that made it look easy, the US rider on Courageous Comet (actually caught her on tape not live) Ingrid Klimke has a lovely mare and did a great job. Not many others made it look easy or good. Don't think I want to see that level of competition again. Way too heartwrenching with watching horses almost falling, falling, bleeding and at least no horse died on course this time. One was supposedly euthanized later.
The reining was fun to watch, some nice riders and horses. The top US rider had tack malfunction and was penalized for touching horn when stirrup broke, which I did not like him from beginning anyway. Very harsh lateral flexxion waiting to go in arena. One disturbing thing I noticed with quite a few of the reiners was the horse when asked to stand prior to next movement would put their heads down low, like the were assuming the position. Hated the look in their eye when they were doing so, looked forced/scared etc. Not all did this, but the ones that did, yuck.

Kathi, do a biomechnics search on how horses should go in dressage, never never should they roll themselves up like pretzels. The back might come up but it should be the action of the hindquarters going down that raises the back/neck up. Putting the back/ hindlegs under with RK puts the horse on the forehand. You also take away the voice of the horse, the neck.

I understand the dynamics = I really am not talking about pretzel thing AT ALL+ but forward , round, lower poll than for "competition " frame- open at throatlatch- is that a problem??? I can really feel the hind legs and the back swinging when I do this properly with my horses ( vs in olden days when they might have just been plodding around on their forehands.)

it sounds very disturbing about what you saw at WEG- I have to say what little I saw on you tube or tv for reining did not make me comfortable for the horses way of going or what looks like submission and not partnership= and Anky's ride was interesting but certainly -she was off the mark for "reining" way of going-
would you say that reining horses are on the bit? or being ridden with contact" ( just curious how to define all this)

My conundrum is wanting to watch some good riding for visuals= and learn to appreciate the qualities of hind end use and back being round- without the artificiality of what is being aspired to at the highest levels in competition it seems== when I watch folks more on par with my level or horses- though- it gets frustrating to watch and I feel sometimes bored or that it is a wasted as the visual is NOT going to improve where I am heading it is just going to reinforce it- does this make sense?

To me, it is best to be able to lengthen and shorten the frame of the horse, not ride in a static frame for time on end. Yes it is absolutely good to have a horse that will stretch, with an open throat latch and chew the reins out of your hand. That is a test of the riding you do. But don't stay there, be able to shorten the reins and have the horse stay soft in the hand but still thinking long in the neck so we do not artificially shorten the horse all while keeping the hindend engaged and stepping into the bridle.

Some of the top riders SP included ride deep but not in HF, where the throatlatch is closed, poll low. The back does swing, but still when you close the throat latch it stops the flow of riding IMO and puts the horse in an incorrect chiropractically way of going. KB in a video I was watching talked of SP riding this way and did not advocate it, but SP is an accomplished rider/trainer of his own so they agreed to disagree on that matter.

You might find this interesting.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzG-0TyTuMs
I never really admired Dr. Klimke before; I simply didn't understand. But I've watched this, and his old Lympics vid, and I keep wondering what Totilas would've looked like if Dr. Klimke had ridden/trained him.

How intersting- I just finished the book :-)

As Kathi H is saying I read the book and EVERYTHING they said makes perfect sense, but NONE of the pictures were of the horses all rolled up and nose on chest. Instead the horses were definitly behind the verticle, but still fairly long in the neck and very relaxed looking.

What I read in Bartels book-

1.) hand without leg, leg without hand. once a horse knows how to do a correct downward transitions you should not have to "drive him to the hand." Just sit up and close the hand with NO leg and it should be his responsibility to do the transition on his own. Anky rides this way and I can see why they would call her horses light. When she makes a change, any change, her horses follow through with huge reactions.
2.) tempo control. This is THE exercise they work on from first ride to grand prix. The horse must not cahnge tempo until asked. Because the hrose is taught to be so hot tot he aids it becomes difficult to specify between slowing down a tiny bit and slamming on the breaks so they drill tempo changes a lot.
3.) Vary the horse's frame. This made sense. They believe if you ride in competition frame 100% the horse will be very tight as would we if we sat with "perfect" position all day. Muscles only strengthen when they lengthen and shorten. So they ride every combination of high and low, short and long. They "say" the frame they always return to is forward down and long. They showed pics of forward down and long which were btv but very relaxed and light looking.
4.) lots of stuff on riding with "unconcious competence" which is where th efeel part comes in.
5.) Lots on how horses learn, but that section is nothing knew to us here. Basically ask, if no response pressure, horse responds correctly, release pressure and reward.
6.) Bartels also feel dressage has IMPROVED since the days of strong men in military. They feel women ride with more feel and less strength and so they developed a system (riding deep) that is based more on feel.

My experience... I have written about confusing Rave. I nitpick and I have troubles just letting him be. My rides would consist of him being tight over his back, so i try to get him to stretch, but then he is btv so i bring him up, and then he gets tight. The whole ride consists of me telling him he is wrong. Since reading this book I have not been so worried about slightly btv. So I first get him really round- not all curled up but relaxed and round. Since I am now happy with that, he is happy too. I feel odd admitting that since I have been letting Rave go btv he is more relaxed and happy then he has ever been After a low and round warm up I bring him "up" for short periods- a few second to a few minutes depending on how far into the ride we are. After working up I always return to relaxed and round.

Rave is NOT falling on his forehand when he goes btv. Yes he is more on the haunches when I bring him up, but we are working on half steps and other collection in the up position. I ride other horses that do fall on hte forehand when ridden round so with them I concentrate first and foremost on keeping them on the HQ.

I think it depends on each horse. Lazy heavy stock types I work more PK style until they accept living on their HQ and then I work more on getting them round. Hotter well balanced but tight and nervous horses I am now concetrating on keeping them very loose and round, even if that means btv, and they seem to honest to God love it.

I have always been against any hyperflexion but the horses are telling me it is not so bad. Of course I am not rolling them up into a pretzel and making them stare at the ground.

I know I look pretty weird doing yoga, but if I miss a day of stupid poses and odd exerciese I hurt. I NEED to stretch and assume different positions to stay healthy. Of course, no one is forcing me and I don't assume a yoga position for an extended period of time.

Because of my horse being quite happy in this position, I think most horses can handle going slightly btv in a long and low position. If they have never done this they can't be expected to hold that position for an hour of trotting and cantering, but Rave could no problem. I would not mind taking a horse deeper for a brief moment- maybe one 20 meter circle. Not to the point of nose on chest, but to wherew it does stretch on the nuchal ligament some. But that has to be balanced with lots of up work as well.

My problem with Anky is all the videos of her horse's nose ON ITS CHEST. And worse, it is for a LONG period of time. If the most deep they ever got was the pics in the bartel's book, than i wouldn't have a problem with it at all.

Thanks Danee!
I value the experience of all the horses you ride and how you are interpreting their needs -
I have seen that being a little btv was better than above the bit for my OTTB in getting to accept ( take ) the contact with the bit- in his remedial work we are doing.
And I too have felt the benefit of moving around the reference point of working the head neck position so it doesn't get stuck or fatigued.
Tempo was one of the main points that Steffen/ Shannon Peters pointed out to the riders in clinic - and that rider controls that with their seat- and that influences everything else
I have found that my tempo was too fast for both my horses and slowing it down at the trot was much better for their balance / hence using their hind ends better - and mentally better if their balance was better- so this has all made sense