The Natural Dressage Forum

haven't seen this book mentioned on this list , perhaps I missed it
got a chance to peruse Dressage Formula - 3rd edition and Notes

Completely with rare exception ( oh ok- recent NEVER behind the vertical vs ok occasionally and crevices in the earth will not open up and swallow you and your horse.....) compatible with NH principles and KR input

( and I got an admonishment "reminder" on the KR website for bringing up other trainers.. )

I haven't read Walter Z books- just skimmed but this one Dressage Forumla has bullet points and lots of good imagery ( but not overdone..) that really make sense to me........I would imagine they are congruent....

also was given an article by Tom Ritter about the interplay with the levels on the training scale and that he would like to see Focus, balance and suppleness included-- again all makes perfect sense and goes along with what I have read from other postings about some of the more natural "natural " guys you all have been working with.......

No have not read Herberman, but I remember Terry, uhh, blanking- what is her name (Kate???) Liking his books.

Walter Z book veryt basic. i did not think it was anything so special.

Thomas Ritter- great great writer, but I would not take a lesson with him if he was the last trrainer on earth, so he would not have the opportunity to chase my horse around with a longe whip and have him dripping in a nervous sweaty panic in 25 degree weather like he did many times over in the clinic I auditted. But I have really enjoyed numerous articles he has written.

that is not surprising about a writer not necessarily translating into being a good clinician..... I can think of a few others.....

I just got a copy of the older Herbermann Dressage Formula from the library and I would suggest the newer version just based on readability.. ( in case you get one- the one I looked at originally was 3rd edition and there might be a newly released version....)

Also got( from library) Isabell Werth DressageSchool- and in quick perusal= I would say it's not "werth" it... as in- don't buy it- ( very disorganized in the presentation of her review of basic dressage figures- concepts are not presented in any seemingly meaningful progressive manner = starts with Turning, Figure Eight, Canter Depart, Walking Off, - maybe in translation it lost something? ( and it was alphabetical in German?) and there is a movement called the Seesaw- reinback to walk to reinback t walk,trot or canter- is this a european thing?

seesaw/ yo-yo game?
Is there a chapter on the halt? If so maybe she should read it? (sorry, had to!)

Paul Belasik's books are awesome and he is a good instructor (if the rider has natural feel) and a ok trainer (if it is the exact kind of horse he gets along with.)

Anyone buy into Karen Rohlfs online course?? reviews??

yes- I was an early adopter....
and for $10 for this month I think you should try it for yourself - there are now 4 months of videos and they present some very very good visuals and her commentary etc - I have found worthwhile ( as I find the material very much the discussion/ approach= that I cannot get with other resources)

the forum discussion is not as vibrant as this group has been= without this forum there a LOT of other trainers/ masters and experiences I would not have had - and learning from all of you has been VERY important in furthering/ broadening my understanding

not sure where "everyone else is"? some other site more interesting / relevant to what you all are doing? ( please share....)
I just had some amazing AHAA moments as a student rider in a centered riding update clinic that was at our barn - some VErY VERY simple stuff dealing with body awareness of legs and hip joints ( that I really didn't think applied to me- ha!- my horses have told me otherwise.... :-)

thanks
Kathi H

I think you should do it now- it is $10 for the first month ( but maybe that is any first month-but I thought it expired in December...?)

Kathi, I sure would love to hear more about the CR clinic @ our barn. Of course, we can't do too much of that!

I have viewed the KR's new "Classroom" clips and they ae fantastic. You know her book and DVD was good, but I needed a bit more. Like when she would go in and touch the horse for it to move over (not even with the CS) in circling on the ground. Like how much, where, when to stop, blah blah. She has a beginning look in those vids and then a ending and compares them, then gives a bullet point in between. It's everything you need!

I too have learned much on here. And I think we have all come a long way! Somehow, the people on this forum have always seemed like close friends,... I like that. Very Happy

Cyndy=

we had an instructors' update clinic at our barn ( this was the third one I have ridden in) so I rode as a student rider- got taught by one of the updating instructors- but the head clinician ( has to be a Level 4 person-and there are not that many of them worldwide and they all have very deep background to riding in addition to Ctrd Riding technique( many studied with Sally Swift back in the 80's) assists the instructors - also you get to sit in and participate in all the discussion/ ground work exercises- some includes body work, use of trampoline, in this case we also had a Balimo chair to play with-
that help develop the awareness of breath and body parts to look for both in doing groundwork AND undersaddle- this instructor has recently paired with a Dutch groundwork guy and she has followed my PNH progression over the past 6 years and is very in tune to that aspect of training/ developing horse and rider.= so it was a great experience ( and as a student rider= you get a break on the cost of the program too- )

Personally I am not a big fan of hearing images - I am very good with literal descriptions and just doing it- but I am probably not the norm- so for me- some of the older images of legs like dripping ice cream cones, holding the reins like you are holding baby birds, roots growing out of your bottom to anchor your seat///// - were distracting ( for me) but "I got over it"-- and part of the student rider deal is to give feedback to the instructors - so I could say= Gee- if I am doing something right- just say-"good" and move on- and skip the picturegram.......

ANYWAYS- many of us had big breakthrough feeling of open, loose , following hip joints with a technique she called the "cradle"- at the walk- legs draped loosely on the sides- but always in contact- and following the lateral in /out sway of the barrel- while still having the energy of the pelvis/hips going forward- riding without stirrups and allowing the ankle, knee to move with that barrel sway= and keeping that looseness when picking up the stirrups= ( and of course after this= many folks wanted to lengthen their stirrups a hole or two)
have you read books or seen videos of CR?- if not I can give more insight if you like on the basic foundation stuff - "ground( feet) center( core) grow( elongate spine- derived from Alexander technique work Sally originally did for her posture issues) and soft eyes-

Yes, I have both CR books (I and II) The first one is still the best IMO. Actually, I have the James Shaw book, Ride From Within (uses Tai Chi) and the one Betsy Steiner has out. Also all of the Mary Wanless books and DVDs. So, you can see I am *very* interested in this!

The hips, which means you have some core strength to move them, is really it isn't it? And we just don't use them enough in the rest of our world. The Balimo chair I have thought of looking into. The chair is pricey, there are DVDs, but hard to find a instructor! I guess the closest I have to it is the $10 Walmart ball! Or maybe I could take back my old piano stool from my daughter. I loved swiveling on that as a kid! Odd how stiff some people seem to be born with!?

My daughter swears by the weighted hoolahoop for keeping in riding shape!

Moving your hips with your horse is initially not about strength, but letting go- the horse will move your hips, but lifting through your torso takes teh muscle, but it is still more feel and position than strength- I can get 50+ year olds to get intot he right position and suddenly they feel strong. they have trouble mantaining it, but often that is more from not breathing than actual muscle exertion. When you do get tired in the right position it is almost always the diaphram that peters out (so I can see where a weighted hula hoop would help)

Eventually, instead of glueing your seat to the horse's back, you want to glue the horses back to your seat, which does take a ton of strength, but it is still more about position than strength.

Ride with your bones, no so much your muscles :-)

Mary Wanless was the first author I ever read that really analyzed what is truly happening in the seat, instead of blindly repeating what her teachers told her. I think she set the bar for me as an instructor- to not just assume, but to really question my own feela nd to watch with new eyes. Thank you Mary Wanless!!!

oh, I know I have trouble with breathing right. I guess I always was a uptight type! I also notice people who are not uptight can sure dance better too!

Incidently, Danee does have a DVD out there on riding that is pretty good!

On one of Karen's Classroom clips she has a woman who rides (moves too much) with her horse. Karen says something like "Are you riding with your horse?" And, I'm telling you, it sure looks like the way many Parelli people ride, like shoving their horse. And I think that comes from Linda's peddling lessons. Linda did loosen up the rider, but it was a bit "overkill." It is really noticeable in the WAZ DVD of Linda and Pat (the "Extra DVD, East Meets West) Linda is flopping all over. And Pat always does that fiddling things, moving his hands and shoulders all the time. I always thought maybe it was because Magic and Casper were RB and needed it, but I come to think it is Pat RB and needed it! Rolling Eyes

Linda did have some Janice Dulak (?) article in the last SC Magazine. She is still giving Linda Pilates lessons. That and WAZ, oh man could that help a person! And someone to push them to do it! Very Happy

Like students watching you to improve....

Cyndy
aren't you in Illinois/?? that is where the Psoas guy is Tom something...
wrote Zen and Horsemanship= and deals with some of this stuff with very simple exercises

I like to use the word Allow for how to follow my horse and vice versa= allow my hips to move- allow my horse to find the connection- allow my elbows to follow the feel...

Danee-
I loved Mary W for Natural rider book but I lost my ability to follow her instructions on feel with "bearing down" emphasis on what to do with your seat-
perhaps she is past that description for plugged in feeling in the seat... ? ( but I did relate to her explorations of using physics and other body work to analyze what "good" effective riders do to be correct and translate it better)

Uh, I think MW lost quite a few with the "plugged in", bearing down thingy. It sure could be misinterpreted. IMO I think it is feeling of having no light between you and the saddle (when not posting of course) and the muscles that make you do it. Like bearing down BUT with no straining to do it. Which, of course is hard if you don't have the muscles to do it. And who would if you don't ride a lot (and correctly)

I am in Northern Illinois about 45 miles from Quad Cities (Rock Island/Davenport) and about one hour south of the Wisconsin border. I bet you go to the fab Horse Fair in Madison, Wi.? I have a daughter about a hour north of LaCrosse, WI. In fact, I seen Danee at the Horse Fair when she and her husband were in the Mustang Challenge (small world, huh?) Danee and I sat on her tack box and talked horses.

My daddy made that tack box :-)

"bearing down" might lose people because of the semantics, but it is a very accurate description of how to really sit the trot. If you ride a short strided QH it may not sound right, but try to sit a young Dutch Wrmblood that is a huge mover and just learning to carry a rider and there is LOTs of bearing down, and yes, unless you ride horses like that so much you have super human muscles, there is some straining.

That is when breating becomes difficult- you are using your diaphram so hard that breathing just isn't natural feeling.

I am certainlynot saying every ride should feel this way, but when you are trying to ride beyond your current strength level, it can be intense.