thegirlsclub

[robyn]

... and how we react on it.

Ooookay- how should I start?

I think on this board we gather a little different folks than the "average" SCA girls.
I mean, since we recreate the middle ages it is quite normal that there is a gap between "girl things" and "boy things". While the average of the guys is going out to fight the average of women like costumes and crafts and cooking.
That is OK. For the roleplay it is OK.

I dont know how to express it... it is about all that chivalry thing.
The SCA and the middle ages teaches the guys to act chivalrous. Also and especially if it comes to women. Sing them songs, carry their stuff, care for them.
In some points, especially if it comes to roleplaying this is a neat thing. And we should give them the chance to do that.

This is my point one: Give them the chance to act it out.
If a guy wants to carry my armour bag or help me build up my tent I am more than glad to let them help. Sometimes girls are a little bugged about it, they say "I can do this on my own" - yeah, we know, but that is not the point. Even if it goes on my nerves and I could do it on my own faster I let folks help. It will give them a good feeling about themselves and a chance to learn. We should all think about that the next time we wanna dhout "I can do this on my own"
How do you girls deal with it?

Well - the point two is interacting with modern life
We are working very hard in modern times now to break up the classic role models. But in the SCA they´re still more there than elsewhere.
How should we deal with that?
There is that guy that wants to be chivalrous even in real life. Some do it with tact and a great understanding, but not every guy in our hobby is gifted with those. So they wanna safe us and guide us and keep us from harm.
What is your experience about chivalrous in real life? You have good/bad examples for that?

point three:
Funny thing is- I find myself reacting more like a guy sometimes than a girl. In my oath to my (female) pelican we included that I always defend her with my weapons if there is need. And in real life I found myself wanting to beat people up that are being mean to her.

Are you feeling the same way? Like switching over to the guy side especially if it comes to fighting? Switching back and forth between attitudes really freaks me.

And it especially freaks the guys that interact with me. I give them a hard time guessing what they should do now.
DO we fighting chicks give them a hard time? Are they just patronizing or is it because we change between roles back and forth and claim they should know what we want now? (isnt that a general female/male problem?)

Greets
Rob - maybe too many thoughts on this one to sort it out.... Hope you get what I wanna talk about.....
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I'm just a person trapped inside a woman's body.
-Elayne Boosler-

[Isabella E]

Well, I think part of the problem is that chivalry is often viewed by many through the lens of the victorians. In that interpretation of Chivalry you get the notions of how to act towards women and defending women and children and all that. It's really nothing like how a knight in the middle ages probably thought about the code of Chivalry.

As for myself, I try to balance things to be both a lady and a fighter. I'm not a model of courtly ladyness, but I I do try to at least represent myself and my husband well. My first teacher and friend in the SCA once told me that by allowing someone to perform an act of service on my behalf it makes them feel good and allows them to express courtesy, and costs me nothing. I used to hate it thinking that I was perfectly able to do these things myself and didn't want anyone's help. But I realized that I ought to take that chip off my shoulder and accept their courtesy because no one was questioning my strength or independence. They just wanted to do something nice for me. And in the ned, since I don't really have a persona and my SCA self is essentially just plain ole me, all of these things I have learned in the SCA have had an impact on the way I view the mundane world. As a result I have learned to accept offers of help more graciously and strive to return that courtesy to everyone around me.

[SuGyong]

I understand completely where you are coming from, Robyn. I feel the same way (thus that topic about being in armor at demos. http://www.createforum.com/thegirlsclub/viewtopic.php?t=145&mforum=thegirlsclub )

First, a lot of women (including myself) don't know how to react to "tough women" so how can the guys know what to do?

Personally, if I guy tries to do things for me it's less work I have to do for myself , and I say so in a joking manner. This way, they get "chivalry points" and I get the idea across that I can do it myself. It's never failed me yet.

As far as being protective.. I have ALWAYS had that "Momma Bear" personality. Even as a child. No one is allowed to mess with my family or friends. I have to admit, it DOES come out faster with a female than a male, but mostly because men get angry if a woman steps in to protect them from anything- takes away "Man Points" or something.
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Opinions? Great! Flames? Oh well. I probably deserve it.

[himiltrude_fan_austrasia]

It's been tough for me to let the men help. And it's not just the men, I don't accept help too easily from anyone. So it's not a gender issue, but the feeling that I can be self-reliant. Last summer, I had my first issue with it. One fellow had trouble with me unloading a truck of its armour. When his wife mentioned he needed to get over it, as I would be fighting him when I got authorized, he agreed, but said I was in a dress at that point, so I wasn't a fighter then, but a Lady. That made me think a bit.

Also, the fellow I generally work with, has tried to beat it into my head that I should just say thank you. His progress so far? After a year, he will look at me and give me a warning tone and I'll capitulate. But it's with a very tight voice. I have to stop my protestations short and just say "thank you". It's very hard for me to do. Then the moment that same fellow tells me to relax or sit down, I get stubborn and refuse. Thus we end up rough housing which is fun , but I can't just sit by and let others do for me.

The courtly thing I have the most trouble with, is the hand kissing. I'm not good at friendly physical interaction with guys, unless it's rough housing and wrestling. More gentle and tender things make me jittery. Sir Gerhardt greeted the (then) Princess and I and she was cool with the hand kissing, but when he started it with me, he said I went white as a sheet. He showed me a polite way to send a "NO" message to anyone else who tries it. Fortunately no one else has yet.

So I'm getting to the point where when I'm in a dress, I'm a lady and need to accept help and be ladylike. When I'm a fighter, I'm THE MAN!!! And I can do it myself. Though I loved teasing Sir Gerhardt when he helped me put on all my armour. I told him he was a very good squire. Then I ducked. I can take help from him and his Lady, but only because I look up to them and feel VERY comfortable with them.

[audax]

As a butch woman, I have been walking between the genders my entire life. So that is not really a big issue for me and since I'm comfortable with it, the people around me seem to be just fine with it. Comfort in ones own skin makes a huge difference in how people react to you.

If a man gets a door for me or carries my armor bag or something like that, I view it as an act of courtesy and respond to it as such. As I have said before, sexism just doesn't register on my radar. If someone doesn't know how to react to me, it's really not my problem.

I behave as a gentleman (man, woman, person, whatever) of arms should. I help where needed, behave with gentility and courtesy towards men as well as women. I find that gets reflected back to me.

Chivalrous behavior in men should be encouraged and rewarded. There is absolutely nothing wrong with it. It doen't mean you have to turn into a wiltiing flower or helpless maiden. Just say "Thank you."

Any warrior, male or female, is obligated to defend the weak, the helpless or those who cannot or will not defend themselves.
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Martel le Hardi
squire to Meser Lyonel Oliver Grace, fostered to Sir Gaston de Clermont
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The Minstrel's Champion

[Isabella E]

I think it's worth mentioning that before I really thought it over, I didn't like it when my husband would stick up for me and we'd fight about it. I used to have this thought that I am not weak so I can fight my own battles and didn't need anyone doing it for me. However I realize now that I should be proud of him for watching out for our family and that we watch each other's backs, and it doesn't make either of us weak or less capable.

[audax]

Just think, while the bad guys focus on him as the more obvious threat, you can kick their asses before they know what's happening.

Husband and wife working as a team. what a novel idea.
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Martel le Hardi
squire to Meser Lyonel Oliver Grace, fostered to Sir Gaston de Clermont
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The Minstrel's Champion

[LadyLia]

I am still working on accepting help. Where I learned to fight, you carry your own armor. If you can't carry it you shouldn't have it, except if you carry it to a fight and get hurt. People will carry it away and there is no ribbing or anything like that.

Now, being a girl, I get asked more if someone could carry something for me. I always said no. But then some of my fighter friends told me that needing help and accepting help are different and that I should let people do my work for me. Actually it was explained more along the lines of stroking ego to let a guy help me as a way of interacting with an intimidating lady fighter.

That raises the question of should I accept the help with the armor bag. I don't really want to carry it, but knights and super dukes and masters that were king when I was born carry their own armor because they should. Why should I be different? I have tried saying, I'll get the armor but you can carry the bag that I have my change of clothes in, but macho guys don't like carrying purple Minnie Mouse bags.

I realize that people are trying to be helpful and that by being helpful you may interact with someone whom you normally wouldn't interact with, but it is a matter of pride on both sides. I would welcome any opinions. Now a stranger asking if I need help into my armor gets the evil death glare and I get teased for years and is a different story.

[audax]

Why not just say thanks and let the guy help? What is wrong with accepting courtesy?
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Martel le Hardi
squire to Meser Lyonel Oliver Grace, fostered to Sir Gaston de Clermont
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The Minstrel's Champion

[Wrenn]

This is something that I've had to address this year- letting people help, asking for help when I need it and deligating. Not all to do with fighting, but with the "I carry my own gear" mentality.

I know I can deal with my gear, and because I can do it, I can accept and even ask for help.

(if I'm running to a meeting or... or... man there's a lot of little things that pull my attention at practice let alone events!) If I allow someone to help me that can give me the extra time to get in a couple more fights etc.

Cheers...
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Adwen Wrenn, Squire to Sir Hrothgar Thorvaldsson

[himiltrude_fan_austrasia]

I've learned that stress has helped me accept help bit better. It's now been two years of learning to fight. I'm currently Sir Gerhardt's Man-at-Arms. When he first gave me that role last summer, it made accepting help even harder. Then I was definitely "the man" and could not even accept a door being opened for me. He grabbed my coat at a restaurant one time when we were all out, and helped me into it. NEVER has anyone done that to me before. At an event, I finally let him "kiss" my hand. But only after I tried to bonk his nose a few times with our hands first. I still felt awkward.

But armour? Since November, I've been playing the single mother to two very young children. This may end up being permanant. So, if people really want to help me carry my 40lbs armour, FINE! Odds are I need my hands free to chase after the kids when thye go crazy. So now I really do see it as very welcome help and not patronizing the female.

Heck, my Knight even helps me put them to bed when he and his Lady are over. Crossing into my parental territory is where I freak the most. But I needed lots of help to learn to be a better parent and I've found he is good with this. (And the tembre of his voice puts the kids right to sleep. YAY!) So accepting help keeps you from pulling out all your hair.

[Hakon]

On the subject of carrying armour. You're a fighter and my comrade in arms so why would I not help if I could?

H

[himiltrude_fan_austrasia]

Well, for you Hakon, I'll allow it. No arguments. ~

[lilkender]

I've found that quietly assisting fighters with their armor (usually buckles they have trouble reaching) instead of offering assistance and waiting for an answer usually goes smoothly. (for the people I already know, anyway.) I enjoy helping, and they get armored up quicker.

[Caillech]

In real life I'm generally inclined to help, so the only reason a dress restricts me from doing that is if I can't raise my arms above my shoulders (must fix that blue cotehardie!).

If someone helps me, I generally ignore the reasons (for example, if they were doing it because I'm a girl), and look at it as generally helpful. In response, I'll try to help them. This may not always be an exact exchange- most of the guys in my household are on the order of 6' plus, nearly twice my weight, so the help they offer can be of the lifting/moving/holding variety. I, on the other hand, happen to be pretty good at baking, sewing, and organizing. This isn't necessarily gender related, it's what I'm naturally good at.

It's nice to let them do nice things because I'm a girl, or really for whatever reason. I just hope they don't think that my being a girl excuses me from reciprocating help.

What does mess with me some days is being treated differently while on the battlefield. Just came back from my first Pennsic, and I was somewhat afraid that I would be treated differently on the battlefield than any other fighter. Of course, I also have to accept the fact that some of this difference comes from non-sexist sources. At one my, the squire to whom I am a man at arms moved me out of the front line of the shield wall. It pissed me off, but he's my commander, so I hauled ass. Later, he asked my if I knew why. He told me it was because I was about half a foot shorter than anyone else in the line, causing a weak point. It wasn't chivalry, or concern for me as a girl, it was tactics. I liked that.

As for those who might feel they needed to treat me differently on the field, my goal in general is to prove them wrong. One of the happier moments of the war, the man to whom I am squired looked at my boyfriend (fighter in the same unit) and asked him if he was concerned for me during the fighting. He basically responded that, no, I could take care of myself and was pretty much the same as any other soldier. Made me smile.