thegirlsclub

audax · Posted: Sat May 21, 2011 3:08 am Post subject: on throwing a flat snap

"And there you have it. This is the heart of the disagreement, whether the combatants know it or knot.

The statement above can be generalized. For example, I can use my hip rotation to generate power WHILE ROTATING IT IN THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION OF MY STRIKE. And I don't mean "incendentally" - the particular shot will be weaker if I don't rotate or rotate the correct way.

This doesn't mean Corby (or Paul, or Oldcastle) are *wrong* - not at all - it means that they are not always right.
A lot of the power in a (regular) "hip rotation" is actually just moving the hip freely so that it doesn't get in the way.

In my view (much of which I got from Uther, and there is quite a bit of diffused Sagan and Paul and probably some Rador and a half dozen other luminaries in there as well), power comes from 3 sources.

1) Large muscles - i.e,. thighs/abs/obliques/pecs etc.
2) Moving about your center of mass like a fulcrum (can be rotational or squatting or raising up, or otherwise shifting)
3) Small muscles (forearm, hand, bicep).

1) and 2) are necesarily related - in that you can't really do (2) without (1). But (2) is not necessary per se... because there are ways do to (1) and channel force without really moving your torso very much. (3) is not "necessary" at all - but sometimes it doesn't hurt to add in a little extra.

The issue is no matter what you are doing your muscles and limbs have to be coordinated. Ie., there is a "transmission" which delivers the energy from your large muscles or hip rotations or squats or jumps into your shoulder / arm / hand / sword.

And that's just "raw" power not apparent power. Apparent power is a whole nother ball of wax because it depends on the angle at which you strike, the position on the sword, flexibility, reach, blah de blah.

Leading to the heel lift. I think that it is probably a reasonable generalization to say that lifting your heel while doing a forward-hip rotation snap/cut robs you of a little raw power. But that don't make it wrong. Lifting your heel actually allows you to rotate FURTHER - which has a few advantages.
1) it changes the angle of attack, and does so in a controllable and flexible manner allowing you to break the shot "around" a shield
2) it adds a couple inches of range
3) the increased rotation will in some cases transfer power more efficiently to the target (and some cases worse, like if opponent steps into it!), while also giving the shot longer to accellerate... so even if the initial "force" (generalize torque?) is lower it's applied longer.

None of the above means that "lifting your heel" is right (or wrong)... it just means that it's neither always right or always wrong. It's actually much like some other thread on "breaking the wrist"."

Read, analyze, discuss, agree, disagree, argue, threaten, flounce away in a huff, whatever

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Isabella E · Posted: Sun May 22, 2011 4:32 pm Post subject:

I'm not really sure where to start to comment to be honest. When I am working on the pell my heel doesn't lift off the ground very much. But I am sure that when I'm actually in motion that's not the case.
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Jesmond · Posted: Sun May 22, 2011 5:59 pm Post subject:

Probably not what you are looking for, but I am beginning to suspect technique is relatively unimportant for power generation compared to brute strength. Yeah, technique is important. But I think weaker fighters (particularly women) are fed a line regarding technique being able to compensate for lack of strength. So far, I haven't found that to be the case.

I think you have to be strong enough that it doesn't matter whether your heel comes off the ground or you are going to be ineffective regardless.
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Isabella E · Posted: Sun May 22, 2011 6:09 pm Post subject:

I think women are fed a line in general about strength as it is. Women are not encouraged to become physically strong. Even the fitness industry tells women that they should 'tone' by lifting teeny weights for a million reps. You see it in the gym all the time where women are doing tons of reps of really light weights for months and months without seeing results. You can't develop strength without really working on it. I think if you want to develop power in SCA combat and you are a woman, developing strength is very important. I know that there is a huge difference in how hard I can hit now versus when I started and it has less to do with good technique and more to do with how much stronger I am now.
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audax · Posted: Mon May 23, 2011 3:45 am Post subject:

Good technique prevents injury, for one thing. I suspect that women have not been taught good technique for women. A technique for power generation for women is going to be quite different than for a man because of how our bodies are put together. Just the difference in the insertion of the ball socket at the hip changes everything.

Having read the Armoured Rose now, I think Duchess Elina is on to something regarding female anatomy. What will work for a guy won't work as well for a woman and I think having the back heel planted will rob them of power. I also bet that most women have their shield strapped incorrectly for their bodies.

I can show anyone here, regardless of size or strength, how throw an effective blow. Guaranteed. If I don't, I will walk home to Texas from wherever I am. I offer right here and now to come and teach a class for women anywhere in the country.

The gauntlet has been thrown. Pick it up or not.
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squire to Meser Lyonel Oliver Grace, fostered to Sir Gaston de Clermont
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The Minstrel's Champion

audax · Posted: Mon May 23, 2011 4:05 am Post subject:

Isabella E · Posted: Mon May 23, 2011 3:33 pm Post subject:

I think that there is probably a kernel of truth that will work for anybody that you can pick from just about any trainer. I don't think the Armored Rose is any different in that regard. I think some of the mental stuff in there is spot on, and men and women's bodies are different. But a lot of her technique stuff just doesn't work for me. Fighting sword foot forward just feels weird. I don't like fighting sword and shield that way. I do fight single sword that way and polearm (not spear though), but it's because I have a very comfortable fencing stance and footwork already. I think a lot of her armoring advice is very good too. I think the unfortunate thing about the Armored Rose is that it can be a decent resource in some ways but is taken as gospel, which has robbed it of it's usefulness over the years.

I know my shield is strapped all wrong but I can't fix it until I get a new shield. It's not terrible, but I also have really long mutant forearms so it makes strapping any shield using a balance point method next to impossible unless I am going to use a shield that's 3' wide.
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Isabella E · Posted: Mon May 23, 2011 3:38 pm Post subject:

audax · Posted: Mon May 23, 2011 8:59 pm Post subject:

dance around the pell. If your practice and your application aren't the same you are doing yourself a disservice.

I am in great agreement with the Little Dragon when he says use what works and discard what doesn't. I don't take anything as the Gospel, not even the Gospel. Critical thought and scepticism are too deeply ingrained in my thought process for that. I do think that Elina is spot on about the anatomical difference and that any trainer needs to be aware of these and teach to the fighters strengths rather than forcing them to conform to a method that works against them.

I believe that a great many mistakes in training women are being made which make us look inept and reduce our numbers.

I think Elina is owed some apology for the way she has been taken to task versus how Paul has been treated or Gyrth Oldcastle or Asgard despite the flaws in their systems. None of it is Gospel, much of it is useful and some of it is not.
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Martel le Hardi
squire to Meser Lyonel Oliver Grace, fostered to Sir Gaston de Clermont
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The Minstrel's Champion

Isabella E · Posted: Mon May 23, 2011 9:12 pm Post subject:

I do move around when I do pell work practicing combinations and moving around it. But If I am just working on training the muscle memory of throwing a basic flat snap I'm just standing on guard.
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It's not the most powerful animal that survives. It's the most efficient. -Georges St-Pierre
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Isabella E · Posted: Tue May 24, 2011 4:58 am Post subject:

I dug out my copy of the Armored Rose tonight and I'm going to read it again. I've read it several times already but never when I was fighting as much as I am now.

Also, when I make a new shield I am going to try strapping it by the method in the book and see what happens.
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It's not the most powerful animal that survives. It's the most efficient. -Georges St-Pierre
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Cunian · Posted: Tue May 24, 2011 11:49 am Post subject:

There's anatomical differences and there's anatomical differences. Hips - I doubt anyone would argue that there are differences. Wrists and grips, not so much. But - yeah - steal techniques broadly and give them a shot.

Isabella E · Posted: Tue May 24, 2011 4:10 pm Post subject:

Wrist wise I ended up having to offset my basket to keep my hand from getting banged up. I think Jess was the one I stole that trick from?
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It's not the most powerful animal that survives. It's the most efficient. -Georges St-Pierre
http://windyvalleybanners.blogspot.com/

Cunian · Posted: Tue May 24, 2011 5:25 pm Post subject:

Yeah. I have to also. And that is in the Armoured Rose. But it is also fairly common among men - was talking to a local knight who also does it just this weekend.

audax · Posted: Tue May 24, 2011 8:52 pm Post subject:

Every male fighter I've let see my swords has commented that the basket hilt was off center. There are major differences in the wrist and grip in many women and a responsible trainer will take that into account. Saying it doesn't exist when it actually does is foolish. Maybe it doesn't exist for you but it might be true for someone that you are training.

There are differences in how deep tendons and ligaments attach to the bone between men and women. This an anatomical difference and accounts for why men are stronger than women, even if of similar size. It also accounts for why a 150 pound chimp is stronger than a 150 pound man.

The difference in the hip movement explains why so many women are having power gen problems. Trainers need to fix their approach and understanding or stop training people.
_________________
Martel le Hardi
squire to Meser Lyonel Oliver Grace, fostered to Sir Gaston de Clermont
-------------------------------------------------------

The Minstrel's Champion