thegirlsclub

Cisco · New Club Member Joined: 16 Apr 2009 Posts: 12 : Items

So, I have a problem about fighting women.

First off, I've heard the answers..."You are being stupid," "Just fight them like you'd fight anyone else," and all of the obvious ones. I truly understand that someone who is putting on armor and going out on the field (especially after they've done it for a while) wants a good solid fight out of everyone.

But...I can't seem to make myself do it. I have one of two fights...one is 'fight down to this person' which is much like me fighting a new person that I don't want to hurt.

And yes, I know it's offensive. I don't mean to do it...

The other is a 'I'm going to destroy this person' fight. I am, to say the least, aggressive and hit hard. I usually do this when I want to fight above me and the person on the other side is trying to destroy me too. I've done this before and shots have landed excessively hard...

I feel like, all my life, I've had this message of, "Be nice to girls. Don't hit girls." ingrained into me. And now, I can't treat them as equals on the field. I can not explain, in words, the amount of shame this brings to me.

I've tried fighting women who beat the ever loving crap out of me. Doesn't matter. I've tried fighting women who are of similar skill, doesn't matter. I simply take the beating and move on...I am not giving these wonderful people who armor up and want to play an honest, hard fight.

I've lost tourney fights because I've been fighting down to someone better than I am, and it doesn't help...none of it seems to help.

I've asked my knight, I've asked female fighters that I am friends with, I've asked other friends...other knights...people who don't even fight...and ultimately none of it ever seems to help.

So I come hoping that some of you may have helped others with similar problems.

Any thoughts?

audax · Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 12:38 am Post subject:

Well....

It's an internal thing, from your explanation. No one else is going to be able to fix it for you or even offer insights. All that work will simply have to be an inside job.

But in order for you to gain insight and change the behavior, perhaps a few questions to contemplate will help:

What kind of man do you want to be? Do you want to be a man that honors others or insults them?

Do you want to lose fights because you can't honor the other fighter?

Do you really want to be a knight? A knight is a killing machine. A machine does not discriminate, it simply does it's job as efficently as possible.

"We are knights. We are professional killers bound by a code that turns murder into to both art and service."

Just some things to think about. If you've been counseled on this numerous times and you still haven't changed then on some level you don't really want to. That is what you will have to gain insight about in order to make that change.

I wish you luck. Feel free to contact me if I can be of further service.
_________________
Martel le Hardi
squire to Meser Lyonel Oliver Grace, fostered to Sir Gaston de Clermont
-------------------------------------------------------

The Minstrel's Champion

Jesmond · Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 1:30 am Post subject:

I don't know you. So I'm going to speak in a very general way about my perception.

But when I have encountered this persistent attitude (as in he talks it to death without any improvement or resolution) I usually come to the conclusion it has nothing to do with me or any other women. It has nothing to do with respect for women. It has to do with him being a certain way and enjoying being that way. He takes pride in the fact that this is something he feels he cannot change because deep in his heart he thinks this is the right way to be. Often these are guys that outright refuse to fight women. Instead of yielding and keeping their mouth shut they want to harp on it and explain it and discuss it and make the women feel uncomfortable. They get something out of it.

Maybe that's you. Maybe it's not. I don't know you from Adam.

Not only can I not help you with this problem -- I don't want to help you with this problem. There are some men that used to have a problem fighting women. Some of them got over it. If you are serious, I think you should talk to some of those guys about their experiences.

Isabella E · Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 1:39 am Post subject:

You are the only one with the power to change your own mind. No amount of advice or talking to other people will change what you think and believe. It's up to you to change your own behavior. Sometimes you have to just toss aside old ways of thinking and reach into yourself and do what makes you uncomfortable. It's no different than confronting what you fear or changing self destructive behaviors.
_________________
It's not the most powerful animal that survives. It's the most efficient. -Georges St-Pierre
http://windyvalleybanners.blogspot.com/

Engelin · Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 4:23 am Post subject:

Being relatively new to the world of SCA fighting, I am still learning to understand all the mindsets and perspectives and thought processes about it.

One thing that I thought whilst reading your post was that perhaps you need to change your entire way of thinking towards fighting.

As with any martial art, the aim of the bout is to win. The art, the skills and the headspace is developed from a life or death situation.

Particularly in a tourney situation, you need to focus on the fight.. not the fighter. Forget that they are a knight, or a girl, or a hard hitter or only have one arm. You are fighting something with a weapon that will kill you if you are distracted or afraid to fight properly.

Perhaps take a different approach in a training situation. Instead of 'just having a biff' with the person, work on a particular technique or drill.

Find a female with some experience and ask them to work with you to overcome it as a technique/drill. Keep hitting them (or attempting to hit them..) until you are comfortable with it.

Just like any technique, keep doing it until it you are comfortable with it and it comes naturally..

Good luck!

Cunian · Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 4:36 am Post subject:

Yeah, I think this is a 'do it over and over until you (a) get used to it and (b) trust that stuff will be okay. Means picking a stable woman in good armor who is at least as good as you and fight together a lot, maybe over a period of months or years, and at some point learn to have a good, solid give and take as you would with a man.

Dorothea · Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 8:55 am Post subject:

All the advice above is excellent. Ideally this is an issue you can in fact deal with and get rid of.

Or, the other option is to simply accept that you are uncomfortable fighting women. Avoid those pickups, and in tourneys simply accept your feelings quietly, accept the defeat at times and that's about it... It doesn't necessarily have to be a big issue unless you make it one for you or others.

I am sure everyone sooner or later meet people they simply don't like fighting as much.

(In my own case, I don't like fighting a few people that I feel don't have control over themselves. It feels unsafe, and uncomfortable)
_________________
Dorothea Weberin, KSCA
Dun in Mara, Insulae Draconis, Drachenwald

Cisco · New Club Member Joined: 16 Apr 2009 Posts: 12 : Items

Jesmond · Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 12:17 pm Post subject:

I don't have a list or anything. I figured you would know. Maybe try some of these guys:

http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=568453&highlight=attitudes+women+combat#568453

http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=46665&highlight=permission

http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=61657&highlight=fighter+consort

Cisco · New Club Member Joined: 16 Apr 2009 Posts: 12 : Items

Thank you Jesmond, I started looking on the AA yesterday tracking down posts about the subject in general.

And...it seems that a lot of the responses seemed to feel like I made it a point to be negative or discriminatory towards women.

I've never brought this up in public before. Outside of my knight, I've never even spoken to the same person about it twice (this, of course, until my posting here).

I've been fighting for 3 years. And only seriously for maybe 2. I realize that I have a problem and I realize that it's discourteous, unchivalrous, impolite, and downright jack-assery that I act this way. That's why I posted in here hoping that someone might be able to give me some ideas.

I'm sorry if I came across as derogitory. I'm sorry if it came off as an attack on the general populace of female fighters. I meant my statement as neither.

I came asking for help.

Cunian · Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 2:14 pm Post subject:

It's just an easy thing to take badly, because it does kind of ruin the fight, and - from the woman's end, there is little one can do about it except to fight as honestly as possible and hope the guy opens up. It's not really a matter of disrespect, I know, since my husband has had some issues with it himself - especially when we have to fight each other - and it is a pretty common situation to have some troubles with. Also I know Master Donal and I know in my head he never meant any harm. It just takes me a while to get it through my heart after a couple of decades of feeling dissed. While women have a lot more sports opportunities mundanely than we used to, they are still largely sex-segregated, and serious competition on an equal field is something few come with much experience of.

Another approach you can take, that will probably help with your development overall, is to work on turning your on fight/off fight switch into more of a gradated dimmer, since there are lots of situations where something in the middle is called for. (I have issues with this with upper-level big/strong novices. I can't fight down to them, because they'll overpower me, but they don't trigger the intensity a fighter who is really good does. Often if I have a specific thing to work on in mind or handicap myself by not throwing a given bread and butter shot, I can work into the higher power fight I need to with them.) Or you can try to focus on another element of your blow delivery - like speed or precision instead of power - and maybe you will be less worried about hurting someone.

Jesmond · Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 3:20 pm Post subject:

I realize that I have a problem and I realize that it's discourteous, unchivalrous, impolite, and downright jack-assery that I act this way. That's why I posted in here hoping that someone might be able to give me some ideas.
If you realize that -- then stop doing it. It sounds like you are a big boy. So knock it off already. It really is just that simple.
Or do you want to hear that it is OK? That we forgive you? That we applaud your Victorian chivalry and the recognition of your gentleman's nature? I'm sure some of the women here would take you by the hand and tell you that. I won't. I have no desire to coddle you or make you feel better.

And...it seems that a lot of the responses seemed to feel like I made it a point to be negative or discriminatory towards women.

Well, aren't you being and acting negative and discriminatory in these fights with women you are describing? Look, in reality, it is rarely the thought that counts. I don't care about your motives. The women you do this to will not likely care either.

I'm sorry if I came across as derogitory. I'm sorry if it came off as an attack on the general populace of female fighters. I meant my statement as neither.

Isn't it derogatory? Why shouldn't I be offended that you can't force yourself to even pretend to share the honor of a real contest of arms with me or other women? Stop being sorry and start initiating change.

I came asking for help.
You came for help? Would a klansman go to African-American forum for help with the way he interacts with people of color? Would a neo-nazi go to Jewish forum for help with the way he regards Jews? Would a conservative Christian go to a GLBT forum for help with the way he feels about them? Let me guess, you don't see a comparison, and you think such a comparison is offensive?

You want our help? You want our energy and effort? When you can't even pretend for a few minutes to act like we are worthy to play in your reindeer game?

Cisco · New Club Member Joined: 16 Apr 2009 Posts: 12 : Items

Isabella E · Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 5:32 pm Post subject:

Here is the problem I think that you're running into. Mental changes can only be made within. You say you have discussed this problem with others before. You acknowledge it's a problem,you are aware of it. Yet you still can't bring yourself to behave differently. So it's not that you can't give up these notions about fighting women it's that you're unwilling to on some level. It can't be turned off like a switch. It takes time and real effort to change your own mind. But shying away from it because it makes you uncomfortable won't help. It only serves to reinforce the way you feel.

When someone gets hit and winces, it's their choice to armor that area or not. If you can't deal with the consequences of the fact that you're hitting people with a stick, that's going to hurt your progression as a fighter overall because you're going to encounter a lot of problems. You will face women. You will face the under armored and the weak. You'll face newbies. But it sounds like you have several issues with combat that need to be resolved, not just this one.

I don't know what it will take for you to be able to overcome this issue. If I were in your area I'd be happy to try and help. I'd sit there and make you hit me stoutly until you could see that my armor protects me. Or that after the helm comes off I'm still alive and kicking. Or I can hit hard too. Whatever. I'd seek you out and fight you at every opportunity. Then we could have a beer and discuss it. But it's tough to do from an internet forum. :\
_________________
It's not the most powerful animal that survives. It's the most efficient. -Georges St-Pierre
http://windyvalleybanners.blogspot.com/

Jesmond · Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 6:41 pm Post subject:

Was I wrong to ask people who have probably seen this before? Maybe so.

I'm not talking about right and wrong.

Regardless of gender I feel bad if I see someone wince when I hit them.

Ok. What we do causes pain. Some people have no taste for it and can never acquire a taste for it. Those people should switch to a recreational activity that does not have as an essential element the causing of pain. Many of them enjoy fencing or other light contact martial arts.

But you've been doing this for years. You are a squire. You are set on this course. I presume that you do not mind too terribly inflicting pain on men since this post was about you having trouble fighting women, not about you having trouble fighting in general.

I gather you are suggesting that I simply turn that off?

Yes.

It's not a switch.

Of course not. I didn't say it was going to be easy or instantaneous.
I don't think you believe you can do it. Do you?

If you do not believe it can be done, you will never do it.

It is something that is ingrained in me and has been for many years.

That's nice. Now, stop telling yourself this. Telling yourself this is not helping. There are all sorts of social conditioning and taboos we carry around. They can all be overcome with intent, effort, and practice. But if you don't want to do it, it is never happening.

It comes down to this: you have to be willing to cause your opponent pain to give him/her your best fight. (I'm not talking about injury. Just discomfort.) At a minimum you have to be willing to inflict pain. I think it might be easier if you enjoy inflicting pain, but even if you can't enjoy it, you have to be willing to do it. Are you?

Being sorry isn't helping to solve your problem. Neither is dwelling on how you have felt for years in the past. Focus on the change you are going to make and how you are going to act from now on.