thegirlsclub Forum Indexthegirlsclub
This is a forum for women fighters in the SCA and similar clubs. Mentors, supporters, etc. too.
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in            Calendar



COMPULSORY UPGRADE!!! Please request for an upgrade NOW! 32+ Pre-installed Modifications! 3 Server Locations to choose from: USA, UK and JAPAN.

9th December 2012 - CreateForum: All servers are upgraded to run using SSD drive. Click Here to report problems!

Philosophy of Winning

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    thegirlsclub Forum Index -> The Brain
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Torvaldr
New Club Member


Joined: 24 Jul 2009
Posts: 6
:
Location: McKean, PA

Items

PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 3:39 am    Post subject: Philosophy of Winning Reply with quote

This is one of my most absolute favorite articles on fighting to win. Anyone I train on a personal level is required to read this.

Torvaldr


On Winning
by Steen Jensen
AKA SCA Sir Sten Halverson, Baron
1994

To Radnor and Rat

Winning is not chivalrous. Winning is fortunate, and should never be more.

At first glance, the knightly virtue of Prowess would seem to demand winning as its proof. If you strive for quality in your fighting, will not your victory over the field demonstrate your success? Yes, it will, but it should not. A combatant's reward should be Prowess itself, not its results; to be concerned overly with victory is to fall victim to Vanity, to feel the need to demonstrate your Prowess to others rather than to yourself. In the romances, in history, knights triumphed through the inspiration of love, the faith in God, or duty to a lord, but never simply for the thrill of victory. Even William Marshal, untouchable in battle, is remembered for his loyalty and consistency much more than for being a brute on the field. Those for whom victory by itself had value were the black knights in history and in literature.

Doesn't victory, properly motivated, have some value? Shouldn't a proper knight have about themselves an air of success, and won't Prowess on occasion produce victory? Yes, though for its negative values, it should be a thing that occurs but is never striven for. However much we find value for winning in Prowess and Franchise (knightly bearing), we find that value's reverse in Courtesy and in Generosity. To strive for victory is to reduce your foe to no more than an obstacle to your goal; to want victory is to rob that possibility from your opponent. The discourtesy and greed of such a desire outweighs any value victory might have to Prowess and Franchise. A true knight will trust themselves to fate rather than selfishly seek victory; they will fight for many things, but never for themselves.

Am I saying anything that isn't obvious? As I spell this out, I feel that most combatants would nod in agreement. But it is a thing that plagues me, this desire for victory, this need. I find that it is consistently creeping in among my better motivations and having its influence. How about that new helm? It is not authentic for me, but it has good glancing surfaces. Why not toss in an open face so that I can see and breathe? Let's shave a few pounds off my shield. Let's cut my armour to a minimum, for the weight, so that I can move better. I can still look good, with a fine surcoat, but I'm not authentic anymore. I've turned our re-creation into a sport. And I've been driven not by any knightly virtue, but only by my desire to excel, by my vanity triumphing over all. Even getting ready for Crown, those extra practices, places victory in too high a light. A Crown, or a Coronet, or any major tournament, should be no more than an interruption in our normal schedule of practice. The victor should be that person upon whom fortune smiles, or who is greatly inspired by the love of their consort, or simply whose prowess, gained humbly and not through need, triumphs.

Thenwhat are the reasons for fighting? I offer three. Before combat, I salute the Crown of our Kingdom. Duty to the Crown and to its people is thus the first of my motives. The duty of a combatant, and especially off a knight, is service in arms on the tournament field or at war. If I am able, I am bound by my fealty to fight (I might consider If I Am Able in a different essay). To the people, I am bound to my role as an inspiration to chivalry. The field is my stage, and I owe a duty to the populace to shine. Thus, in some tournament ceremonies, a salute to the populace is included.

Do honor to the person for whom you fight this day. The honor you bring to your consort is the second motivation. As brightly as I shine upon the field, that light should show for my lady love. As I fight for gain, that gain should be for honor and honor only, and should be lain in the hands of that person for whom I fight. Only the victor's consort receives the wreath upon the field, but the consorts of all should carry the greater reward of the honor gained for them by their champions. In this I fear we fail; in history and within our society, renown clings more to the combatant than to his inspiration. But once a year, I do attend a tournament where I go nameless, and fight only as the champion of my lady. On that day, I feel much more the knight than I do on most other days of the year.

And salute your most honored opponent. Joy of combat is the last true motivation. When someone comes to me to learn to fight, my first lesson is that of joy. Was that fun? If it wasn't, you should not fight. You must love this thing we do--its exhilaration and technique, its pain and wonder as a test of honor, its service to Crown and consort. Joy will carry you through times of onerous duty and pained honor. It is the one constant granted to us, and when it finally leaves then it is time to hang our weapons upon the wall.

A desire for victory is not part of chivalry. Fight for the Crown, for the people, for your consort, for joy, but not for yourself. Victory is a powerful lure, but resist it. Fighting is a test of much more than just Prowess. Salute your Crown, your people, your consort, and your most honored opponent; steel yourself against ambition and hold yourself to duty, love and joy; then allow the fates, however you might understand them, to select the winner.

(This essay also appears in Chronique, Issue #9, William the Marshal & Early Tournaments.)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
rauokinn
Senior Club Member


Joined: 01 Apr 2007
Posts: 484
:


Items

PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for sharing this -- I'm going to ponder it for awhile.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
paulb
New Club Member


Joined: 24 Feb 2008
Posts: 14
:
Location: San Mateo, CA

Items

PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This points the way to the ideal towards which we should strive. It's so easy to forget.

Regards,

Paul
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Isabella E
Site Admin
Site Admin


Joined: 01 Apr 2007
Posts: 1789
:
Location: Shire of Windale, Atenveldt

Items

PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree. Lots to think about. I have found myself in the winning mindset many times.
_________________
It's not the most powerful animal that survives. It's the most efficient. -Georges St-Pierre
http://windyvalleybanners.blogspot.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Torvaldr
New Club Member


Joined: 24 Jul 2009
Posts: 6
:
Location: McKean, PA

Items

PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is why it is my favorite article and AI spread it around as much as possible. When ever I take on a student for fighting I always insist they read this article and we discuss it at length.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Essyllt
New Club Member


Joined: 26 Oct 2009
Posts: 4
:
Location: Crescent Isles, Lochac

Items

PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 10:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very interesting! And as above, lots to think about.

How do you reconcile this with the individual bout? i.e. the "hit the other person and don't get hit" part of fighting. Isn't that wanting to win?

I guess what I'm asking is, can we really apply this to the individual bout, or should be thinking about it in a meta sense - you fight to the best of your ability in every fight, intending to win, but you never make your own renown your primary goal?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Torvaldr
New Club Member


Joined: 24 Jul 2009
Posts: 6
:
Location: McKean, PA

Items

PostPosted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Essyllt wrote:
Very interesting! And as above, lots to think about.

How do you reconcile this with the individual bout? i.e. the "hit the other person and don't get hit" part of fighting. Isn't that wanting to win?


I do not think so. It is about dedication to your prowess and the desire to become the best you can be. Think of it as art. You strive to do the best you can to perfect your ability. Perfecting your ability is the goal, not defeating your opponent. The defeat of your opponent is the byproduct.

There has been any number of times that I have won a fight and felt disappointed in my performance, and other times that I lost but felt elated at how I did. That is why I dislike folks that measure their success in how far they went in a tourney. When my friends and I talk about how we did at a tourney we don't talk about how many people we defeated or how many rounds we went. We talk about how we felt, did we have fun, was our targeting on or off, was our shield work on or off. We might talk about specific fights, but it is not as much about who won or lost as what each of us did in the fight and how it worked, or did not work. "I tried this, but they saw it coming, or they tried that and I fell for it."

When I have had conversations with others who say things like, "I was out in two rounds." I always follow up with, "But did you have fun?" and "How were the fights?" Because that is where the true measure of your success lies. One of the things I remember once when talking to some knights about when they start to consider someone to be of peerage quality in combat, they do not always talk about how often that person wins, but how tough they might be in combat. For example, "I have never lost to so and so, but each time we fight it is a tough fight and I have to really pay attention to what I am doing."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
     
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    thegirlsclub Forum Index -> The Brain All times are GMT
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
thegirlsclub topic RSS feed 


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group

FREE FORUM HOSTING by AtFreeForum. Terms of Service - Privacy Policy
FASHION ACCESSORIES - BLING BLING - LADIES WATCHES - KOREAN CHILDREN CLOTHING - ONLINE BARGAIN STORE - FASHION JEWELLERIES