thegirlsclub

[Tibbie Croser]

In another thread, Jesmond wrote:

"Divide all armoured combatants into two groups by gender.

The average level of skill of female fighters is much lower than the average level of skill of male fighters. The average level of dedication of female fighters is much lower than the average level of dedication of male fighters.

Lack of competance and dedication has delivered a blow to the reputation of female fighters that appears impossible to counter."

Jess's statement is thought-provoking. It explains why some female fighters *don't* want to be identified as female, just as fighters. It also suggests that there's a bigger individual burden on female fighters than on male fighters. A male fighter might be responsible for the reputation of his household or his barony or his knight's squires. A female fighter is responsible for the reputation of these plus the reputation of female fighters in general. If she quits fighting for good personal reasons, she's adding to the reputation of female fighters as lacking dedication. If she tries her best, but doesn't have top-level skills, she's adding to the reputation of female fighters as being less skilled.

What are the ways of improving the general dedication and competence of female fighters? Whose responsibility is it to improve the skill and dedication of other women?

What role do recruitment and training play? Should the top female fighters be trying to actively recruit women who have the potential for long-term excellence? Should they be actively weeding out dilettante female fighters and those who may have heart but lack ability?

Does dedication always translate into competence? I think female and male athletes have certain underlying mental and physical aptitudes, such as aptitude for understanding and analyzing body movement. I suspect someone of either gender who lacks these aptitudes won't become a top-level SCA fighter even with extensive training and practice.

[Slaine]

[Cunian]

Yeah, there are people that are perfectly happy being dilettantes. They get what they want to out of it. They are useful to have in wars, and should be valued and cherished for that.

Tons of top-level fighters were not the most-promising beginners. Plenty were, but this is still an immature enough sport that heart can count for more than ability often enough. In some ways I would hate to see it progress so far that you would need the best of everything, (body type/brain skills/heart/training), to do well as in most mundane sports. Fighting is a 'volksspielen', 'people's game, not a spectator sport where some minute percentage play. To remain that, there has to be room and appreciation for all who participate at whatever level they do so. Showing up IS worthy.

[ratslayer]

I think in the end all you can do is be the best that you choose to be. I used to feel responsible for "changing or upholding" the view of a serious fighter who happens to be female but it really impacted my mental game. I'm learning that the only person who's opinion that really matters is mine. I can't actively change anyones thoughts and really why should I? If they want to be an ignorant putzoid that's their decision. People, regardless of gender, have different reasons why they fight. My reasons are my own and my choices are my own. I can't make decisions based on how it will impact someone elses preconceived ideas.

Kelwin
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The GOOFY way is the TRUE way!!!!!

[Isabella E]

It's important to me that female fighters try to help and support other women seeking a life of arms if they feel comfortable doing so. It's been my experience that most women who take up fighting now see other female fighters as role models and look to them for support, advice and training. In the earlier days there simply weren't many women you could look to for those things because they were blazing a trail for the rest of us but now that's just not the case. I am pretty comfortable saying that a lot of aspiring female fighters nowadays identify strongly with other women who share an interest in martial arts. I know I do. I look up to an identify with you guys.

We all want to be seen as just another fighter but the heart of the matter is that even with the most awesome guys who train women just like the men, who fight us just like any guy and bring their best with them, we are still women. That's not necessarily good or bad. I am one of two recruits in my fire academy out of a class of 33 and the only one that will likely be left standing at the end of the academy. My male counterparts are great guys and they help and support me and drag my ass uphill when my legs feel like they're going to fall off, etc. But there are still different expectations on me and a lot of pressure for me to succeed and be superwoman in a profession that is only 3% female. I am a firefighter, but in the back of their minds I am still a female firefighter and the expectation is that I must succeed despite my gender and prove that other women deserve to be there too. I think a lot of women don't want that responsibility, personally. At times I feel overwhelmed by the fact that I'm trying to prove that women can do the job too. I don't think it's that much different in terms of SCA combat.

For myself, I have chosen to embrace the fact that one of the first labels applied to me is 'female'. I am a woman. I don't want to strip away an important part of my personal identity to fit in. I would rather face these barriers head on as a strong woman and an example to my daughter and smash the hell through them then try to blend in.

/tangent

As for a couple of direct points, ahem, and with a preface that not all women are the same of course and what follows is some generalizing...

Women I think are often motivated differently than men in terms of teaching methods, success and failure. A lot of my experience in teaching comes from teaching people who say they can't do art of any kind how to be scribes in the SCA. So far I've been pretty successful and there's more women than men. The women I have taught got overwhelmed by seeing the finished product and often told me 'I could never do that!'. It took me a while to get them past fear of failure or being terrible at it and just give it a try. But they responded really well to specific tasks and positive praise along with good constructive criticism. Now they're drawing their own designs and stuff and don't need me to do much more than give criticism when they ask or get advice.

I would apply the same teaching techniques to fighting. Focus on the small picture and the whole package will eventually come together. Within SCA fighting though there is a critical lack of structured teaching technique and practice. The majority of fighter practices are just sparring sessions with little to no focus on the techniques of fighting. My white scarf, when I first began fencing, didn't even let me spar until we had done several months worth of footwork and drills and it paid off immensely. I was a much better fighter for it right out of the gate. It's an environment that imo, suits a lot of women very well because you're taking the focus off winning and being badass and putting it onto small victories that build self confidence.

In the end though dedication and hard work don't always amount to a badass fighter, regardless of gender. SCA combat is open to almost anyone, regardless of fitness level, age, size, etc. There's tons of guys out there who are dedicated and have a lot of heart but who will never wear a white belt or win Crown. Some people just want to have some fun on the weekends. For some reason the fact that some women fall into this category has become a stigma to the rest, even though the same can be said of a lot of guys. It falls on the few to remind everyone else that women can be dedicated and competitive too. The SCA has created a culture where everyone gets to play. I don't think trying to weed out women who are weekend warriors will help us at all. It will just paint us as elitist bitches who will readily seek to do harm to each other. Those who lack desire and dedication will usually get bored and find something else to do in their own time.
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[Ariadne]

[broinnfinn]

[Jesmond]

It is what it is. I’ve decided there is no escape from it in my lifetime. Now I operate simply from desire and duty in the life at arms. I have no energies for other consideration. If you can take up our banner, and are willing to do so, please do. Some days I suspect that my participation is more harmful than helpful. I again face despair in my progress at the life at arms. That’s another thread.

That said, I doubt that the objective evidence (if you could somehow quantify the actual numbers of female v. male fighters and somehow quantify and rate their dedication and skill and average it out) would support the notion that women are less dedicated and less skilled in sca armored combat on average. As indicated in the other thread, many women sure appear to be putting forth more effort in some ways than their male counterparts. This can certainly be seen in their attendance at fighting classes.

Are such reputations unfair? Absolutely.

It is a self fulfilling prophecy, strengthened by continuing beliefs that women are not martial and that women’s participation in war (and even playing at war) is unnatural. These beliefs are both conscious and unconscious and carried by many to varying degrees. I’ve fallen victim to such beliefs without even realizing it. I have written in other threads about watching Sir Jocelyn finaling in a hotly contested Midrealm Crown Tourney and feeling amazed and then feeling sick at my elation. If I find myself succumbing to such beliefs considering my unusually gender neutral upbringing, how pervasive must such ideas be in both males and females of all generations? Have you read the McCracken article in the .pdfs section that comments on GI Jane? Interesting stuff.

I think an observer with such beliefs perceives the highly visible female fighter and whatever she does, and files her away as part of the stereotype. Occasionally, she will act in a way completely incompatible with any such belief. She no longer fits into the observer’s conception of female fighter. The observer then classifies her as “other”. She is an “exceptional” woman -- an exception to her sex. She is “one of the guys.“ She is “not like other female fighters.” This is meant as a compliment. Women receiving these compliments feel proud. I know. I’ve been there.

But this pride and the acceptance of otherness is a big mistake. It ignores what needs to be changed -- the erroneous beliefs that women are not martial. Accepting or confirming otherness or being proud of otherness is a disservice to female fighters and their supporters everywhere. How do you change it? I don’t know. Now when people tell me, “You are not like other women” or “You are not like female fighters”, I say, “Oh yes I am.” I don’t fool myself that I am making any fast or significant change. But I feel like this is something I can do, so I do it.

In some ways, I am interested to see how the rapier community’s attitudes on such things will transform the armored community and if youth combat will make any difference. I have no doubt that rapier will gain a peerage and a crown tourney in the future and I can’t imagine how that might slowly transform attitudes throughout the sca as new members with new perspectives join and play in the sca. Women have flocked to the rapier community and are succeeding there in large numbers. I assume this is associated with a rule set that is predisposed to women‘s participation -- unarmored with a touch convention that eliminates the male strength advantage -- and also with the general personality qualities of the kinds of men that participate exclusively in rapier. (What does that mean? Male rapier participants tend to be less chauvinistic and less caveman-like than some male armored combatants?? That’s the offensive gist of what I am getting at, but not quite accurate and certainly not fair.) I’m also interested to see how more of a co-ed experience in youth combat might transform future heavy combatants’ attitudes.

[Tibbie Croser]

Thanks for responding, Jess. Your post here seems to suggest some different thoughts from your post on the other thread.

Interesting that you bring up rapier. From what I've read on the LadyRapier e-list, rapier wasn't always a co-ed paradise. In earlier years, women fencers encountered some of the same problems from male fencers as did women in SCA heavy combat. I suspect that when male fencers were disdained by the armored fighters as "wire weenies," they may have compensated by disdaining female fencers in their turn.

Rapier peerages and rapier crown tourneys are a radioactive topic, for another thread. However, in my kingdom (Atlantia), a number of armored fighters have taken up rapier, and some fencers also fight heavy. I think that crossover is what may have changed or may change attitudes about women fighting. Atlantia lacks female knights, but we do have several female White Scarves and quite a few women on the level just below the White Scarves.

Another thing that may shape attitudes in future is fighters coming into the SCA from foam weapon games like Dagorhir, Belegarth, Amtgard, etc., where female fighters are more common (if still a minority).

[Jesmond]

[Ariadne]

[Natasha Maria]

A while ago, I noticed that many women start fighting in the SCA differently than many men.

I know quite a few women who started playing in the SCA, doing Arts and Sciences, service and just having a great time learning about the middle ages. Later, they decided to try fighting. Some of us love fighting and stick to it. Some of us find it's not for us, but enjoy the camaraderie of it, and keep our gear around for wars and low key events.

Some women do indeed join the SCA for the fighting - we see it and we say to ourselves, "I want to do THAT!", but I think there are many warrior women out there who got involved through different channels.

The result of this is that we stick around even when we're not fighting. We go to events, and are visible. I know a number of women who "used to fight" and a number of women who "sometimes fight" and a number of women who "would really like to fight some day but don't really have the drive to get their gear together".

I contrast this with what I see as a typical male experience - keeping in mind that of course there are others who don't follow this path .

Many of the new fighters (male) whom I meet saw the fighting and wanted to play. They display various levels of determination, skill and enthusiasm. They usually get their gear together quickly and show up consistently for a while. They either love it and stick around, or they just up and disappear.

People who start in the SCA for the fighting alone often don't tend to stick around if the fighting isn't what they imagined it to be. Therefore, I don't know all that many guys who "used to fight" who are still involved in the SCA. I think almost as many men start and quit proportionately as women, but since so many of the women are still active members of the SCA community, it's more visible.

The diverse interests many women have in SCA related things keep many of us playing, even when fighting isn't our focus. Unfortunately, this increases the view that "many women are not as ___________ (dedicated, talented, skilled etc.)"

Finally, I think there just aren't as many of us, which results in other realities. I stopped attending "female specific" fighting classes when I realized that unfortunately, the majority of attendees were new fighters, many of whom had never even been in armour. Great classes! Good things to have going on, but not what I was looking for. When "female specific" translates into "basic", it doesn't help the stereotype. It does, however, give those people who need a little extra encouragement a safe, welcoming place to show up and learn, so I am glad they happen even if they don't work for me.

Hopefully that made sense. It was a long day at work today

Maria da Palermo

[tessatazzi]

I came to fighting after many years of service. I chose heavy combat over rapier since my then husband played rapier and he's pretty darned good at it. I didn't want to play in his sandbox. Because I'd be started MANY years after he had, I'd only be his shadow.

When I got into armour finally and let others in my barony know I was ready to fight I was looked at like a 3 year old with beautiful dainty curls wearing boxing gloves wanting to fight my father or big brother. I got the, "Awww aren't you cute" pat on the head and was sent on my way. They just didn't take me seriously. There are only 3 other female fighters in my barony, two play only in wars and the 3rd I didn't realized fought until earlier this year.

I stuck with it.

I went to practices at "home" only I wasn't getting the varied instruction I felt I needed or rather instruction that remotely took into account my size. I moved to another practice. There was none of this... you're a girl BS. Matter of fact, there are 2-3 of us "girls" that show up on a regular basis. Some days, that's half the practice group. I got what I was looking for and hardly EVER do I get any sexist type remarks. Uh about my fighting, all bets are off when you're fighting with so many guys. Each fighter looks for weaknesses and teach you how to defend against it. It is very rare that someone will say, that's a girl problem.

My skill level may not be very high. You might say that my dedication isn't all there because I don't go do pell work however I'm fairly consistent at going to practice. I am competant at my skill level. I'll fight with a girl, a female knight, the crown princess/Queen and I'll also fight the Duke, any knight or some who's been doing this for 20 years. Its all go to me. I also make sure I ask questions when I can learn something, Where was my shield? What did I actually hit, even if it wasn't good. Can you show me how to defend that attack.

My being a girl doesn't stop me from asking, learning, teaching, defending or attacking any other fighter out there. What might stop me is knowing how hard someone hits and how badly I want to sit down afterward. I really don't think that has much to do with being a girl. In fact, there is a very cool upside, I wear a dress and I can out show my bruises better than a guy. Yah, I'm still in the "wanna see my bruise" phase.

Ok rambling now... back to your regularly scheduled show.

[Cunian]

Yah, well...

We are, what, 50? years out from a unique revolution for women's lives - the invention of reliable birth control. A bit more if you count cheap and fairly reliable condoms, but the pill doesn't rely on the cooperation of the guys. This is huge. It is arguably bigger than the moon landing, certainly on its effects on the lives of half the population. It used to be that THE MOST IMPORTANT THING for the (non-exception to the rule) girl was attracting a high-quality mate. Still is true for all animals and a fair chunk of the human world. We now take for granted that a woman can lead a fulfilled, productive, happy life without a husband. This is AMAZING! So, if it takes the guys a little while to catch up, give them a break. They have just lost a lot.

[ratslayer]

I like your train of thought Cunian! Heck even some women still haven't gotten used to the whole idea of women succeeding without a husband. I just have to look to some of the women who "controlled" the home owners association in my subdivision and how they targeted me, the single woman, who bought her own home without the help of a man or a divorce settlement.

Kelwin (a bit cranky today)
_________________
The GOOFY way is the TRUE way!!!!!